A "friend of mine" at least some ones opinion i respect here "tote" often says " we are all slaves to something." I have thought about this a lot lately and in basic theory he is one hundred percent correct. We all have something that we are beholden to weather it is a job our ideology or various other things. Every man woman and child has something that controlls them.

THe point I cannot quite seem top grasp is the difference between forced slavery and willing slavery. I do understand the difference between the two in a fundamental form. My life includes a part in which my significant other has put her self in a state of willing slavery. I say willing slavery with the more commonly well understood terms. and if you ask her she will tell you she is mine to do with as I please. This relationship is based on complete trust and not forced subjagation. She is fully trusting that ym decision will be what is best for her and for me even if she does not understand fully the reasoning behind my decision .

In a philosophical light however the difference between forced and willing slavery are two completely separate things. Forced slavery for instance like that which happened in the state a few hundred years ago and earlier for centuries in africa and other continents and countries take on a distinctly dark appearance. This brand of slavery was forced subjegation without the will or consent of the affected parties.

At its base it is dehumanizing as well as morally and ethicly wrong to any one who holds freedom dear. I personaly believe that any action or force which is unwillingly propagated on a person or persons that restricts there freedom to choose and guide there lives to the outcome they choose is morally wrong. We often mention on these forums the taxation system as a form of slavery as well as the restrictions as ot what is and is not appropriate to say.

THe argument can be made that we willingly put ourselves into this level of subjegation so it is not in the darker sense slavery but willing submission to another parties will. This is once again correct on a certain level because our own inaction has created the world we live in. There is a third factor at work here which does make me question and that factor is ignorance.

Ignorance is normally no excuse, this situation is a little different since we are programmed since birth to accept authority and what we are told without question. we are taught and shown the who the where and the when but we are never taught the why in school. Some of us have woken up later in life and are making our voices heard now and are spreading the word of enlightenment. But this awakening does not change that there was still a forced ignorance and blind acceptance forced on us through out much of our lives.

Slavery in itself is not a bad thing in the main example I gave both me and my woman are happier stronger and more in tune with not only ourselves but each other and the world around us. The situation has lead to personal growth and development for both parties. This same experience can be felt by others here as our awakening make us no less a slave to the world and knowlege but a willing slave using the situation as a method to not only better our selves but others as well.

In stark contrast forced subjegation has only negative affects. In a forced situation all property lines are crossed without consent and without consideration of the greater good.( I cringed when i wrote that as it was one of hitler's famous lines) We see the fall out from it now just like we saw in the southern states. THe owners weather it be of plantations or government start to fear the people. MAsses rise in protest even if they are not one hundred percent certain of what it is they are truly fighting for. THink back to the slave revolts they wanted "freedom" but when it was given there was a generation or two of people who where lost having no direction and lacking the sense of self to detemrine what was best for them as a person or how to evolve there position.

For a long while the financial structure in place failed and yes it was as we know a small issue in a major war. Granted history attempts to teach us it was the main reason for the war. In reality it is all a stark example of property rights and transaction. In the begining the slaves property rights where forcably breached.And yes even the owners property right where breached even if there property was gained in a incorrect manner.

In a fair trade agreement however a willing slavery situation can be extremely beneficial to both parties. In the case of me and mine it is a transaction she knowingly and willingly handed over her poperty rights with full understanding that she while still being a sentient being would no longer be in soul ownership of her. In exchange she receives my insight protection and the flow of knowledge between us both. A fair trade long considered on both parties sides after weighing all potential outcomes.

This post is not made as a propaganda piece for a life style choice, neither is it claiming this choice is correct or better then choices others have made. it is simply the clearest example I could think of with which to illustrate my point of a willing slave situation.I encourage you to look paste your own potential agreement or disagreement with the subject matter or the " bdsm/ gorean" life style choice. I encourage you to look at the point rather then the package it comes wrapped in.

_________________
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche-

Well first, thanks for the shot-out. Second, the slave/master relationship is evident everywhere. I think the reason God is so desired as a Master to serve because it is a unity through "something perceived as good by alot of people". When I used to go to AA, they would say that God meant "Group Of Drunks", sometimes I think it means "Group Of Dervishes" (wise men), and instead of viewing it as "many" I view it as "One". Becoming one complete human being is very very difficult. I still don't suggest I have become one complete human free from outside influence. But another question is, become one "what"? When we look for our idea of what it is to be a man or woman, we look first to our parents, then to our friends, then to advisers, and so on, but who did they all look to? And ultimately, God establishes the starting and stopping point. I didn't like the AA interpretation of God because it was too cookiecutter-esque. I felt like they were trying to diagnose a symptom as the root of the problem. I tend to think the root of the problem was that I felt threatened and have since I was a child due to violence in the household. Small tid-bit on myself, my Dad left when I was 4, and I only have 2 memories of him. One was he took me and my brother to Dairy Queen and we had a blast. The other, I was sitting in his lap and trying to put his sun-glasses on his face, and accidentally poked him in the eye with them. He was pretty drunk, and got irate. He threw me from the kitchen into the den, about 8 feet. My Dad had an extremely abusive childhood, he idolized his Dad and would run up to him to give him hugs after work, and his Dad would push him away and ask him if he was a faggot, shit lke that... then he joined the military, (which is alot like therapy, not really). My neighbor who was a female was being molested by her dad, and she would tell me about it as a kid. She kind of confided in me when we were younger. So I experienced some traumatic shit pretty early on. I've always been really uncomfortable around other men my entire life and I think mostly due to that experience as a kid, and with the Atheist mentality, the only time I was comfortable in large groups of men was when I was shitfaced because I didn't feel threatened then. Unfortunately, I also think that due to that issue of mine, it lead me to group with people who also had similar backgrounds, and so no real healthy bonding ever took place, it was always traumatic. To this day I don't think I've ever had a real friend in the sense that, someone who was ABLE to care about me as much as I was ABLE to care about them because the people I grouped with had extensive violent histories for long periods of time and major trust issues, and I desperately wanted to get beyond that, not settle into it as a way of life. I think that, I experienced a small enough amount of violence as a child that I was able to get beyond it somewhat and be functional in society (meaning, it's not like I have panic attacks when I get in groups of other men, I'm just not comfortable), usually because they are still battling for Alpha status and I'm not. So for me, God, as described in Islam, is the Omega part of 'I am the Alpha AND the Omega'. In my mind, the Alpha status is already occupied, so now, I can just be me, the good the bad and the ugly because God is the Most Understanding. And when people attack or ridicule me, I think to myself, "the Alpha position is already taken... thanks to God", and I can shrug it off. That's why one of my most favorite sayings is, 'If you're looking for perfect, you're going to have a very lonely life", because, it's my interpretation that this idea of Perfection is what makes Christianity so unattractive and tasteless to people who have experienced everything BUT a perfect life. It almost comes across as part of a Divine Joke built into Inherent Justice. The people I know who were fucked up beyond belief, and later attempted to subscribe to Christianity to 'purify' themselves, from my perspective, have so many personality issues that I don't know who to address when I talk to them anymore. Them, the trinity? *shrug* I dunno. But for me, I needed an idea of what a man should and shouldn't be, and I found that answer in Islam. The Sufi's are called "The Friends". I have never felt, so much completeness, as I felt when I started understanding Sufism. It spoke to every aspect of me. The religious fragmented aspects, the non-belief aspects, the anger aspects, and really kind of re-trained me that the heart of man (or woMan) is the home of God, and to treat people that way, because, from that Throne, whatever you get is directly related to that. In Islam they say God is the owner of all the hearts in the world, and the Sustainer of the worlds. (I needed my world 'sustained'). No other thing made sense to me. When they say, 'Answer the Sufi call, as best as you are able, and you will be safe in this world; and every other world', they are demonstrating that True Friendship is the only thing that will keep you safe here, and that your prayer is questionable if you have ever broken someones heart. But if your head is a mess, you may be hurting people and not realize it. Who determines what a mess is? Since psychology varies from person to person, and is ultimately a matter of opinion from psychiatrist to psychiatrist, (even though some psychiatrists attempt to cookie-cut diagnose things and end up warping their patients, which is how psychological warfare works in the first place), it comes down to, who are YOU? And do you have the ability to remain 'you', whatever that may be at this moment in time, in the face of adversity? I looked to Sufism for Guidance, not dictatorship. I can't deny what my heart tells me is right and wrong, and I don't. If it doesn't make me feel good, I don't do it. That doesn't mean I have a peace sign in the air and hug everyone I see either, just means, I'm me. I like me. You don't have to. Lot's of people don't like me. Lot's of people would like to kill me. But lots of people like me too, and if you don't, they will. If I have to deny my own self inorder to socialize with certain people, I'll socialize with them, but we won't be friends.

In conclusion, I'll say, nothing makes me happier than Friends. And they are only a real friend when they know the difference between a partnership, and ownership. Nobody owns this motherfucker, but God, as 'I' understand God to be, not them. That's friendship. And I think of God as the author or original teacher of Self-Help. Idries Shah being a descendant of Muhammed, also wrote, self-help books.

I was thinking along the same lines about this earlier. Does libertarianism, taken to the philosophical extreme, mean that one should not get married? Have a job? There are give & takes in every relationship. I don't see a way around it. It's a matter of functionality, not inequality.

_________________
"Truth is treason in the empire of lies."

OK where to start on this one. as far as troubled child hoods go unfortunately there are many who share your past on the same level or worse. The most unfortunate aspect of a troubled childhood is many use it as a excuse to not accept responsabilty for there action or there other vices. those who strive to reach beyond what there history has been and reach forward to the future are few and far between. complacency is a hard thing to move beyond especialy when societal pressure assume that you will be what your parents had been. my early child hood like was ripe with abuse including my having my sister mother and i dig a large grave to " symbolicly bury our sins" then went out and baught a rifle. A long list of sexual abuses as well are in my family history. Granted those hard times are much of the reason I have strived to move beyond what I could be to what I am.

I do worry about if some of what has happened and his many mental issues if any of it is genetic since some studies claim manic depression and schitzophrenia can be transfered through the family line. The risk of potentially being more suceptable to these issues in the future keeps me in balance and was a large part of my desire to know myself in my totality.

It took me a long time to become comfortable in large groups especialy groups that happened ot be predominately male. Since I had no real father figure I had no idea of what was really expected of a " man" . I knew what i had experienced but I was also aware that that was a far cry from what was expected. In large groups I would watch the others quietly from the background and try to determine if they where men or simply male. Long years of watching and listening it became painfully obvious that most of them did not know them selves and simply put on a display. The standard being the hyper aggresive look at me i am a bad ass routine. As you put it everyone was trying to be the alpha and assert there dominance quietly over the others.

What good is being the alpha if you are the alpha of a pack of animals that are not sure what they are. Your answer seemed to be more of a spiritual nature giving the title of alpha to god. ( as described by Islam) My answer was more along the lines of utter disgust, the contempt almost of watching people go through life asserting a image of them selves but not knowing who they happened to be. To my mind the actual Alpha is the one who knows himself not the one who put on the best display.

A god I couldnt put in the alpha position simply because I do not see one god. It feels wrong to put the christian or islamic version of god in the alpha spot since there is no way of knowing if he she or it is the one true god or if there even is one true god. I believe there is a supreme diety or dieties but I cannot bring my self to name one and elevate it to a higher platform then the others.

You mention the people you knew were fucked up and prescribed to christianty as a way to " purify" themselves. This to me is the ultimate form of slavery the forced subjegation sort. When you submit ot something in order to hopefully achieve a greater benefit as only a get out of jail free card you do not only your self but the belief a disservice. Would you willingly work for someone who you where not certain they where who they said they were in the hope that the huge paycheck they promised was true. Accepting an offer like that is lowering yourself to nothing more then a lottery ticket. I am not saying that all who prescribe to christianity are foolish. I am saying that those who take on the mantle of any religion simply because it could be the quick fix are still a slave to there nature.

The only time i think a person can truly gain Alpha status amongst there peers is when they have achieved the true realization or enlightenment of themselves. When a person knows who they are what they believe and are comfortable in there understanding of this knowledge other will gravitate towards them naturaly. A person who understands themselves naturaly puts off a heir of confidence that those who are lacking that sense of inner peace will follow without question.

In the example of my first post MY girl asked for a year to move to the position she is now in. I would not allow her to offer what she was offering until she knew me far better. she had gone through a list if "men" and "Masters" who where simply putting up a front . In the end of course they would prove they were no more understanding of them selves then she was of her self. After more then year and her understanding that I would not change as a person and me learning I was willing and able to help another person grow and develope as a human I finally accepted her offer.

This is the danger of people who put up the signal and are trying to be the typical " alpha" those who do gravitate towards them only end up being more dissallusioned and lost then they were to begin with. And to be honest as a person it was part of my journey as well. I did spend time as a submissive in a relationship where I was left high and dry even disposed of in public with the very public and very loud denial that this person I had come to respect and trust even knew me. Well here is for lessons learned the hard way.

To conclude anyone who is attempting to be a "alpha" will never be one. The only way to have a true friend ship with the lines of communication open in both direction is to know your self first.without the understanding of self there is no way to understand others. God may be the original self help teacher but it is our repsonsability to help our selves instead of relying on structured religion. Understanding the core principles of a religion is often where the actual faith lies. Understanding your self and breaking free from the self induced slavery to the past is the only way to truly understand you. when one begins to understand who they are then relationships can truly happen weather they are between humans or between a person and there God.

Yes friend are incredibly valuable most times you can only count one or two true friends in a life time. No need to thank me for the shout out "tote" you earned it. I greatly appreciate reading well thought out posts and yours have repeatedly been very interesting and informative to read.

_________________
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche-

For sure. People handle trauma in lots of different ways. Some people develop victim-complexes and use it as a vice. To me, that is a disgrace to the victimization because it's taking something that should be regarded as bad, and using it to get a desired attention. A pity-complex. And love (felt in the heart) can't be an outcome with that. And I believe that not everyone who supports Ron Paul has been victimized in some way, but I'm sure alot of them have been and they're tired of it, and that may be a big part of their reason for supporting him, but also, people who haven't been and don't want to be. And I say this part is important to philosophy or religion because our life experiences play a big role in molding our philosophies and the way we view the External world so to overlook that is to negate our own self.



Very true. But they have to be looking for a new way of life. Most people just try to make the best of it as it is and why it's said, "you can't help someone who doesn't want help". Because even if someone appears to need help from our perspective, it may be us ourselves that need the help. The analogy I use is, it's like laying on an operating table and saying to the surgeon, "here let me help you with that!" Help isn't always helpful. The gesture is nice, but it still doesn't make it helpful.



That's a limitation of confined thinking. Confined thinking can be dangerous. Not always, but it can be.



I certainly don't think trauma makes us who we are. It let's us know who we don't want to be, and when people are treated like they are confined to that, THAT is what is responsible. Supporting people who move beyond those things, if it's their own choice, is the best encouragement anyone could hope for. I didn't have that support in my house. I felt like everywhere I went, I had a super-imposed image of my dad on my face, and was treated accordingly. Regardless of how much I attempted to explain that I am my own person, certain members of my family were not on the same page with me, psychologically. Expectations also play a role in confining peoples thinking.



Schizophrenia can also be linked to a vitamin deficiency. A vitamin known as b3 (Niacin). There's actually a funny Sufi story that says (in short) someone lacking an essential vitamin such as Niacin would go to a doctor, and if the doctor prescribed to them "Niacin", they would think that the doctor was trying to kill them. That's how powerful vitamin deficiencies alone can be on our entire Being. As a society, we eat trash food and don't even attempt to equal it out with a multi-vitamin or anything. I'm a big fan of multi-vitamins, (and am trying to eat better too just because).



I don't personally subscribe to the idea that mental illnesses are genetic, anymore than I don't subscribe to the idea that people are born gay or racist or any other psychological state. I think that people in large have their emotional, psychological and nutritional needs neglected early in life, and it produces all kinds of whacky results sometimes. Because their parents, and their parents-parents, and their parents-parents-parents had their emotional, psychological and nutritional needs neglected early in life. So although their may be a pattern to it, I think "genetic" is another example of confined thinking. Some argue that alcoholism is genetic. I argue that people turn to things to make them feel better when they don't feel happy whether it's drugs, alcohol, sex, food, whatever it may be to make them feel happy. If the happiness part was there, the need for the others (in the unhealthy sense) would disappear. Just as alcohol sales have increased a great deal in the last few years. It's directly related in my opinion.




Good point. I tend to ask myself the same thing, is this person a man or a male. Or even the same for females these days, is this person a woman or a female. My ex used to say, "you know, women just want the same things as men" *knot in my stomach* and I used to think, "who are these men and women you're talking about?" Because I have very specific things I want and don't want in a relationship. So, her idea of what men and women were was basically, people who bang each other. (She also had a history of molestation in her early years and I knew that beforehand but no matter how many times I used to tell her that I wasn't nearly as interested in sex as I was love, I think she had been conditioned to get attention that way). So, when I wasn't up for sex, she took it as I didn't love her, which was hardly the case. I don't think I've ever loved any one AS MUCH AS I loved her, but we were totally in different places psychologically and rarely saw eye to eye on things. She made the comment to me one time that she viewed herself as a sex goddess. No offense but, I didn't, and I'm not saying that to be shitty just because we broke up, even though I was upset that she wasn't willing to attempt to understand my position on things, I still have a great deal of respect for her as a person and would never put her on blast in public by name but, it would have been much more amazing if my heart would have gotten half of the attention she put on sex and I feel is ultimately why our relationship fell apart. It seems to be how alot of people are functioning these days sometimes and there's no real love there. Sex and lovelessness are kind of tied into our society so much that, people think it's ok to be like that. They get married and don't even know each other because they banged a ring onto each others hand and thought it was love, and inevitably, end up getting divorced. Love starts at the heart. If it starts at the crotch, there's gonna be problems. 'The only lasting beauty is the beauty of the Heart.'



That's right. And I'm tired of that. I've been tired of it my whole life. To me, it's just misdirected hostility, and no one really enjoys being on the receiving end of it. And also why I believe when Jesus (which I consider the representation of the Heart says), "If you deny Me, I'll deny you before the Father." Can't deny the Heart and expect love and friendship to be an outcome. It's a nutrition.



Good point. Which also reminds me of something my ex said to me one time. She said, "we're just a kind of animal." *knot in my stomach* I don't view humans that way. Same goes for when I hear people argue that gay animals can be found in nature, I say, "you do realize that you're comparing yourself to an animal right?" So it's a matter of where the attention is focused. It's my own personal opinion that, we can't BE God, but we can't be a 'complete' human without him. And it IS a big honor to be a "human being".



MOST people don't know their own self, including those who study religions. Infact, there's a Sufi story called Emptiness that reads:

Everyone in the ordinary world is asleep.
Their religion - the religion of the familiar world -
is emptiness, and not religion at all. - Sanai, Hadiqa (Shah 208)

Just as Osho pointed out in one of his lectures, the purpose of the Master is to UNDO what society has done to us. JUST THAT ALONE, is alot! Society and social psychology impact alot as far as how we are to interact with people and on what level, which also functions as a conditioning for our own selves, until we encounter internal conflicts, the feeling that something isn't right, but I can't quite put my finger on it. And like Sidewalk said once, for the shallow, the religion becomes the end. But there is another story called Those Who Worship the Externals that reads:

If the Muslim knew what an idol was,
He would know that there is religion in idolatry.
If the idolater knew what religion was,
He would know where he had gone astray.
He sees in the idol nothing but the obvious creature:
This is why he is, in Islamic Law, a heathen.
Shabistari (Shah 207)

Same can be said that this is why there are no images of Muhammed, to avoid Idolatry. Another Sufi saying being; 'Do not look so much at my face, but take what is in my hand.'



Understood. I personally tapped out when I started reading Islamic literature. Again, to me, just because the Alpha (and Omega) positions are already filled by a single entity doesn't mean I'm not interested in peoples ideas or opinions on things. One mans floor is another mans ceiling. It just so happens that, that ceiling is REALLLLLLLLLLY high. lol I look at it as, people are applying for the God position. They keep putting in applications daily but, no one is hiring. It's a one-person spot that's filled for eternity. Like I say, I wasn't even responsible for creating the egg and the sperm that created me. To think that I can claim that I am responsible or in control of all existence is not only unreasonable, it is insane. God plays a small, but very important role for me. It's not like I would read verses from the Qur'an while I'm getting it on with my wife (should that happen) lol. It's just an answer that satisfies me as an individual as far as how to perceive the external world.



I agree 100% But that's why I say, Islam completed that fragmentation. If everything was left up to the heart, it would look alot like, well, Christianity. But the heart is extremely important. So is the mind. Islam took that into consideration. Which is also why it's said in Sufism; 'Our science is not of the World, it is of the worlds.'



The people who praise God out of a desire for Heaven or fear of Damnation are lost, and utterly confused, in my opinion.




To me, that's not Alpha, that's just another Friend. Because to me, Alpha assumes there is nothing like them. Like it says in the Qur'an, "He is Allah, the one and only, he begets not nor is he begotten, and there is nothing like unto Him." That's Alpha. There are billions "like unto us".



True. Confidence does give a sense of security, but the harmfulness comes in when being that sense of security may be true or false. The guy who lead the Heavens Gate cult that had a mass suicide was FULL of confidence that there was a damn spaceship behind Hailey Comet. Remember that guy? Quite a few people followed him, for no other reason than he had convinced them of "something" that they felt inclined to believe in. *shrug* I personally don't think they are on a spaceship somewhere. So sure, we all know brainwashing and occultism takes place in this world. All I argue is that, people subscribe to whatever makes sense to them. What makes sense to me is that, there is no god but God, and Muhammed is his final Messenger. Not, there is no god but God, and Marshall Applewhite is his final Messenger. And now this is only in regards to God, not life as a whole. People sometimes get turned off by the idea of God because others turn it into a battle for attention. If the kind of attention they are looking for is to be perceived as God, it is them who have falsely diagnosed the human condition and are in error. For the same reason I don't ask Bubba down the street for spiritual advice, knowing that all religion came from the East, it was natural for me to look towards the East to 'sort out' these understanding-conflicts I was having. It's my personal opinion that, the teachers of the past gave out teachings on self-help, and those teachings were stolen and manipulated by SOME Jews (not all just to make sure I'm not encouraging "anti-semitism" here), inorder to help serve THEM instead of help mankind. In a very crude way, I'll say, Islam unfucked that, and that's why Zionists reallllllllllly don't like it. It's not in their benefit to like it. But not to single out Zionists, because other groups also followed a similar suit once they realized they could put people in positions of servitude to themselves. It's just a disservice to their own self.



Mutual acceptance is key. I'm real big on mutual respect. If we enter into a relationship with blatant disrespect in mind, respect will not be an outcome.



Thanks. I enjoy yours too and everyone here really. Like I say, I don't think trauma is necessarily responsible for why people support individual liberty, but I do think it plays a role in the philosophers and ideologies of people who don't live in a world where there is nothing but peace love and happiness. I think we all WANT peace love and happiness, but our methods of getting there are different than those who already think they are there.

"It's a matter of functionality, not inequality." Couldn't agree more. To me, equality rests in dignity, respect, and other similar attributes. Not a chic that can bench 40000 pounds or a dude that braids his own hair. To me those aren't equality issues, they are gender-confusion issues. If part A wants to be part B, and part B wants to be part A, nothing is going to get done. Part A and part B are equally important.

For sure. People handle trauma in lots of different ways. Some people develop victim-complexes and use it as a vice. To me, that is a disgrace to the victimization because it's taking something that should be regarded as bad, and using it to get a desired attention. A pity-complex. And love (felt in the heart) can't be an outcome with that. And I believe that not everyone who supports Ron Paul has been victimized in some way, but I'm sure alot of them have been and they're tired of it, and that may be a big part of their reason for supporting him, but also, people who haven't been and don't want to be. And I say this part is important to philosophy or religion because our life experiences play a big role in molding our philosophies and the way we view the External world so to overlook that is to negate our own self[/quote]

I see this in basicly the same light, while childhood or adult trauma does not dictate who we are it does play a role on our developement. I cannot say that more RP supporters suffered trauma then any other candidates. The sad truth is that most people in America have suffered mental trauma in there formative years. The trauma that does inspire RP supporters seems to be waking up to the realization that the government they have been conditioned to trust unquestionably does not have there best interest at heart.



This is something it took me too long to figure out. I learned it the hard way through relationships. I often times tried to help someone"work past" an Issue only to latter realize it was my own issue.Needless to say not exactly the method for a healthy relationship. My new understanding make it seem as if this was nothing more being a slave to my self and my own past. Sadly enough it was also a method to defere responsibility, by projecting my own issues on to another and attempting to force them to take credit it for it. It took me a long time to realize that it was a form of abuse in itself.




Your opening sentence here is the truth simply put. There in also lies the problem instead of seeing it as what we do not want to be too often it becomes a road map for what we will be. We are not taught as a society to move past thing or to understand trauma is nothing but a learning experience. As a society we are taught to take a pill for it , see a shrink and do everything else possible to live in that moment of trauma. Most times your past weather or not you have moved past it is used as the identification others attempt to classify you by. My grandparents still want me to see a shrink and get regular mental checkups because my biological sperm donor had issues. It is not until recently that my mother and her husband have realized I am my own man and my choices are my own. Everything step if it did not follow the religious path they chose for me was and still is to some extent seen as a path to turning out like my father.

They still have a irrational fear of even discussing the past as if mentioning it will bring it back to life. but then they are slaves to there religion using it as a cloak against reality. Even when I received the new my biological father died they refused to discuss it only saying" well i am relived i was always worried he was going to come knocking on the door.



I had heard there may be some connection with diet for some mental disorders. The American diet is honestly crap. when i was younger and we ate just pretty much what we grew I was actually in shape. After leaving WI and starting to eat other food I ballooned up to being huge even if I ate substantialy smaller quantites then any one else. Even if some mental disorders could be traced back to vitaman shortages I still wouldn't blame the food supply I would simply add something to my diet in order to even things out.


As far as mental disorders being genetic I cannot say i agree with in totality either. I think it is often used as a excuse for actions and behaviors. There may be a link to certain disorders through genetics even though no one can say for certain. Since my family does have history of mental disorder, I find that I would be very neglectfull if I did not keep an eye out for some potential symptoms. I do not think I am guaranteed a disorder due to genetics or anything. I do believe that if I am going to accept the repsonsibility of a family I would be derelict in my duties if I did not make certain that I was in top mental form. I do not think one day I will wake up and have voices in my head and the desire to kill of my family because they have sinned.( both of those symptoms of my father) Forgetting about it completely would not be the best thing, but putting up a set of check and balances the repsonsable thing. For me I see it as moving past the past acknowledging it happened and that there may be a small chance that I could be more succeptable to certain things, without living in the past.



The modernized ideal of a relationship seems to be two fold. When young you are expected to crush on some one , have loads of frivilous random sex then get older and settle for some one who suits your financial needs or will pout up with you. The modern interpatation of love handily ignores the little detail of actually loving the person and knowing more about them then there first name and there prowess as a love maker. I think most people want specific things in a relationship I know I did. Whiles sexual gratification is nice it gets old and then your relationship is left with nothing to hold it together and now you are simply another divorce.



This is the exact reason why I made my current girl wait for months before I even acknowledged her attempts at physichal intercourse. She had been through several other men before me who only based who and what she was base don if she was willing to put out and what she was willing to do. I wanted her to see that she was more then what she could offer with her body. It took me a while to get her to see that anyone who judged purely on the access they where given was not judging the value of a person but only how much they would be willing to engage in intercourse. She had been conditioned over years that the strength of a relationship is based on how much sexual energy was there. After about three months of her thinking I didnt love her or she was just some pet project of mine she started to realize I wanted to know her. When she got to that point realizing her value in my eyes was not based on the physical she stopped attempting to throw her self at me and instead began to offer. I know it sounds wierd but after she realized she was worth more then the sum of her parts she became much happier as a perons and in the relationship.






Well at the base level we are all animal and physicaly nothing more. That being said the animal kingdom is hierarchal and always will be. Predator/prey is a fact of life , limiting ourselves to only the base animal distinctions though does seem to be an affront to nearly every faith or belief system ever developed.To even things out assuming we are completely removed from other life forms and people seems to be some what arrogant as well. To my eyes we as human are all on the same basic level at birth no one having any more value or import then the next. The difference between people only becomes evident in the choices they make in life.




Finally some one else said it religion it self is idol worship. I have said this so many times and people of all faiths react in shock when they here it. The very reaction is proof that it is true the establishment of religion has taken on more spiritual value then the faith behind it if that is not the model of an idol I do not know what is. MY other thought is simple the world second biggest religion christianity is so riddled with idolitry it is sickening. Let us look past the standard ceremony and look at its core member. That is right let us look at Jesus. Everything he did was under the guise of humility but was self serving always taking credit first then saying " my father" helped. Each and every miracle " I heal the sick.. in my fathers name", "I cast out demons... in my fathers name". Over and over again it is repeated but never once does he say I am the messenger or the message is delivered through me. Eveyrthing is based off of him with his father as a foot note. I mean after you read the bible through several time you start to notice things. The Jewish leaders where well within their rights to have him executed as he was commiting blasphemy at every turn elevating himself to the level of the great " IAm" or "iahovah"


I understand your logic here. Applying to the "god" position is well arrogant and pridefull. My thought process dictates that science DOES NOT answer everything. There are simply too variable and freak accidents that would have had to occur to create this ball that we live on. The chances are so infentecimal that it borders on impossible , let alone for the magical mix of herbs and spices needed to create human gumbo. The absolute complexity and the perfect balance needed for us to even be here tells me there has to be a greater being.( no matter the name you give to it) While I am a firm believer in logic and reason that very logic and reason dictates there must be something else. I believe in a god I do not know his or her name, I do not know if they work miracles among the people or simply watch us all run around like ants.





Let me explain my idea of alpha a little differently.I do not see a alpha type to be better then any other human let alone equal to a god. I see it as a differentian on the human hierarchy of self awareness. A god or diety will always occupy a space on the ladder far higher then any meer human. When i speak of alpha I mean simply among humanity. Now I also do not mean alpha as the fastest, strongest, I mean it as those who would move past the bonds of stated humanity and look into them selves to discover them selves. Perhaps I would be more clear if I said i see many of the sufi teachings you share, even the bhuddas teachings as coming from an alpha. I say this not because of who the people are but the way at which they perceive the world from a different perspective then others. MY explanations are poor today.




Cult leader 101 charisma = follwers, I was expecting to see jim jones on the list as well. I see your point about confidence the difference between confidence inspired by enlightenment and confidence as a facade or a bi product of self delusion are far different things. I do not think that anyone made it to a space ship or that the official uniform for alien space travel include black nikes and that famous jonestown koolaid. These " leaders" where less then elightened I still think if they would have truly looked into themselves and weighed out the possability of there action they would have performed far differently. I still think they where less leading a cult and just as much prey to it as there followers. The followers are just as much at fault wanting to neglect responsability for life and place it on a alien craft or a spiritual epiphany. When will people see that faith is not life but faith is a tool designed to help a person through life. I can sense the flaming PMs coming now. Let me clarify a bit more if you have to "live" your faith you are not living your faith.



Amen



Mutual acceptance is key. I'm real big on mutual respect. If we enter into a relationship with blatant disrespect in mind, respect will not be an outcome.

This response did not quite cover all of the points you braught up I took several hours creating a well though out and organized response then the forum timed out.

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The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche-

I want to jump into this conversation but I have to admit I have not had a chance to read through all of whats been discussed.

Allow me to take this is a metaphoric direction.

My wife is a horse trainer, she sat me down to watch a documentary about a guy named "Buck" they call him the "Horse whisperer".

He talks about the history of how people would "break" horses. Tie them on a big rope and snap the whip until every action the horse performs is out of sheer fear and terror.

I think that many relationships have the potential to be a broken horse and the master.

This guy buck however, talks about how if you would take the time to get to know the horse, and earn its trust, that it will willing-fully take you upon its back, and you could cover far far more ground then you would on your own two feet. The horse does not server you, the horse carries you out of love and respect, it knows you will provide all of its needs, and out of gratitude, it will carry you along your journey.


I often tell my wife that I have no interest in dragging her along to live my dreams or chase my ambitions. With my wife, I just genuinely love the person that she is, out of genuine affection and love, I try to find ways to make her burden light, and if I can run faster or further than her, I wish to carry her to where she needs to go. Not because I get something out of it, but because I have everything as a result of her friendship. My willingness to "serve" her, is a result of her willing fullness to do the same.

The best analogy I was given in a relationship, is that if a person is willing to meet the needs of their partner in every aspect, 100%, and the other person is willing to do the same, both are loved completely, cared for indefinably, and every need of either person is met without limit.

If I give myself to someone who loves me wholly and completely and I trust that their intentions are for my betterment, it releases me to do entirely the same for them, without worrying about what I will get out of it.

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"Given man's nature, freedom will always be in jeopardy, and the only question that need concern each of us is if and how well we took our stand in its defense during the short period of time when we were potentially a part of the struggle."

You contradict your self. You do get something out of the relationship, granted it is not material. I laughed at the breaking a horse metaphor since many people who share in certain areas of my life style use the break the horse methodology. AS you can guess it turn out with a broken horse that will follow orders and look pretty but that is all they have a nice show piece.

The metaphor all comes down to time and control. ( do not freak out on me here) If you have the time to get to know the " horse" ( continueing your metaphore) it can be trained instead of " broken" often times with better results. Control is also key if you have the self control to ignore the outbursts of restraint and your own urges and frustrations then the end product normally is far more flexible. My personal methodology ( yes I did live on a farm so no one get offended) is if you do not have the time or self control to tame the animal then do not start the process.

Granted I love my girl and it took me years to get us to a point where we are even and understanding and know each other better then most married couples ever will. On the flip side of the equation some horses need to be broken for there own good. You cannot have a wild stallion ( plays air guitar) in the pasture with all the phillies and mares.


IF you are overly sensative do not read beyond this point,--------------------------------------------------------

I prefere to use the sculpting metaphor, when you enter into a relationship it is like looking at a fresh block of marble. Inside that marble there is a sculpture. You have two methods you can use ,you can start chissleing and hacking away and force the marble into the shape YOU want it to be. Or you can take your time and let the marble tell you what it is going to be.

I have used both method and well forcing the marble to fit the idea you have will create a sculpture but in the end it is just a sculpture your will imposed . Working slowly on a relationship or in my case girl where you take your time and realize the vision you have will have to change here and there and hers chanegs here and there as well. In the end there has ben mutual change and the finished product is not a lifless bit of stone cut into a shape but a masterpiece filled with life .

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The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche-

My point was not that you get nothing out of it, it is that you get everything out of it.

In a relationship were both parties seek the better good of the other, both parties are fully taken care of and all needs are met.

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"Given man's nature, freedom will always be in jeopardy, and the only question that need concern each of us is if and how well we took our stand in its defense during the short period of time when we were potentially a part of the struggle."

Actually all I get is everything I want. I get her and to watch her change , grow , gain confidence, and a feeling of self esteem. So I guess I am selfish and happilly so she gets me and my time and I get her and we both get to share a deeper understanding of each other. Much like you and your wife I just get there a different way.

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The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche-

I dont think we are dissagreeing with eachother

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"Given man's nature, freedom will always be in jeopardy, and the only question that need concern each of us is if and how well we took our stand in its defense during the short period of time when we were potentially a part of the struggle."

Me either different methods for different people. The end result is pretty darn near the same though. NOw if we could just shake of the manacles ignorance that are chained together with tyranny and wake up as a country then I would be real happy.

Which was really the main topic of this post willing enslaving ourselves to our own ignorance to avoid the burden of choice. I do not understand How as a people even with evidence overwhelming, we chose for the most part to do nothing. Is the fear of being different ,or maybe forcing our selves to realize we may have made mistakes so hard.

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The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche-