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jwalidea
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 Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:56 pm |
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Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:35 pm
Posts: 358
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SidewalkLiberty wrote: Quote: In other words, theoretically if I were to act on "true" free will, it would be an act of random variation tomorrow morning where I make a choice that would be completely non-predictable and completely out of context or any logical sense of all the events in my life that have led up to that choice being made How do you reason that what would happen tomorrow would be random? If you made a free choice leading up to it? and if you made free choices leading up to "tomorrow" than "tomorrow" would be in context and entirely logical, no? Good question, and that's why I said it's hard to quantify intellectually. I believe it in theory--if any given sub-atomic particle has the small % potential of acting independently by random chance--so too could an organism. Because if the part(icle) is capable, so is the whole (us, the universe), especially if you negate (through holographic theory, for example) the divisions we've created between the part and the whole. But would we even know it if it happened? If it can't be a choice we consciously make via thought or reason--which would seemingly inherently make it default to determinism--then perhaps the random "true" free will is ironically somehow occurrences we aren't consciously aware of but only experience objectively. I don't know, like I said, that's where it gets into a realm that confuses me. To me, the subject of "true" free will or the implications of random variation is murky and mostly theoretical, maybe just due to my own ignorance. _________________ Reduce your government footprint. Twitter: @jwalidea YouTube: /jwalidea
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jwalidea
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Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:11 am |
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Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:35 pm
Posts: 358
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m082844 wrote: Let me see if I understand you correctly. By "true free will", I understand you to mean essentially an isolate random choice. I think you may be taking the term "free" to an unreasonable extreme here to mean free from any influence whatever; I don't think that is what's meant by free will. If I understand your meaning correctly, a couple of things seem a bit odd.
1. It seems odd to associate someone's will -- in this case, someone's "true free will" -- with randomness. If someone wills it, then how could it be random? Randomness implies that no choices are applied.
2. It's nearly impossible to isolate a conscious being from reality; one would need to destroy their senses (their ear drums, eyes, nerves, and tongue). At that point, is awareness of a choice even possible? In order to make a choice, you must not be isolated from it. And to be completely isolate from past experience, the trick is to possess no experience at all, which means destroy the senses before they perceive anything. Can you picture how useless your mind would be at that point?
It seems that if I understand you correctly, then "true free will" is impossible. It doesn't even make much sense.
However, just because "true free will" is impossible, doesn't mean determinism is necessarily true. I'm not sure how you jump from non-random and non-isolated to necessarily non-chosen. What about the excluded middle? (Unless I misunderstood you, and you consider determinism to include the possibility of choice).
My apologies for being repetitive here, but man either has the ability to choose or not. I think it fairly self-evident that man can make choices. Man's choices need not be isolated nor random -- that is the essence of what is meant by free will if it is to make any sense.
(You're right to challenge my assertion about nothing operates outside the laws of physics. It's not as accurate or as encompassing as it could be. It's more accurate and more encompassing to say, nothing operates out side the law of identity -- the fundamental law of existence.) All very good points and I pretty much agree with you. Kind of like I said in my last post (in response to SidewalkLiberty), how I define "true" free essentially implies complete momentary isolation and no choice, which seems like a paradox. I guess personally it's just a concept I believe in theory, but don't understand. I think, again, it all just comes down to how literal we want to be with our definitions. I believe in determinism because I define "free will" in very absolute terms--choice free of influence--which somebody else (you for instance) may see as an unreasonable extreme. It's all subjective. But if we define "free will" more loosely as simply having the intellectual capacity to make a choice between A or B, however, then I'm not even sure what the debate would be, as I don't think anybody could respectably argue that we DON'T have the ability to reason in such a way. However, one must also acknowledge that any reasoning we utilize to make a choice is not isolated in itself but rather a culmination of experience and prior events. Right? _________________ Reduce your government footprint. Twitter: @jwalidea YouTube: /jwalidea
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m082844
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Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:36 am |
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Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:28 pm
Posts: 45
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Correct, reason requires knowledge. Knowledge, if taken to mean facts about reality, is hierarchal, and therefore, cannot be isolated from other facts.
You're also right about our topic depends on how you define the words you use; it ultimately depends on the concepts being described.
I guess I misunderstood your position. Your view of determinism contains man's ability to choose. There is nothing left to discuss then.
(Also, I'd be cautious of accepting any paradox as true -- it is likely to be a contradiction. A corollary to the law of identity is the law of non-contradiction -- contradictions do not exist.)
_________________
"The real cost of the state is the prosperity we do not see, the jobs that don’t exist, the technologies to which we do not have access, the businesses that do not come into existence, and the bright future that is stolen from us." -- F. Bastiat
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Wakenbacons
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Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:17 am |
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Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:25 am
Posts: 5
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I might agree to a sort of Milestone Destiny... where milestone events are predetermined and perhaps I am able to flounder my way to each point with free will decisions. Is this the other side of the "true free will" we're getting at? "Untrue free will?" (lol)
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"All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."
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jwalidea
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Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:21 pm |
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Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:35 pm
Posts: 358
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Wakenbacons wrote: I might agree to a sort of Milestone Destiny... where milestone events are predetermined and perhaps I am able to flounder my way to each point with free will decisions. I believe this too, personally, but don't think it's absolute. I think we have the ability, through personal choice and/or random intervention, to stray from our predetermined path. Do you by any chance also believe in reincarnation then? Just curious. _________________ Reduce your government footprint. Twitter: @jwalidea YouTube: /jwalidea
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SidewalkLiberty
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Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:12 pm |
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Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:25 pm
Posts: 492
Location: Texas/California
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jwalidea wrote: Wakenbacons wrote: I might agree to a sort of Milestone Destiny... where milestone events are predetermined and perhaps I am able to flounder my way to each point with free will decisions. I believe this too, personally, but don't think it's absolute. I think we have the ability, through personal choice and/or random intervention, to stray from our predetermined path. Do you by any chance also believe in reincarnation then? Just curious. I could say I believe in some sort of reincarnation but I would have to expound on that greatly in order to clarify. However that idea is based in karma, which to my understanding is opposite of the Determinism philosophy. I am interested in how you correlate the two?
_________________
"Given man's nature, freedom will always be in jeopardy, and the only question that need concern each of us is if and how well we took our stand in its defense during the short period of time when we were potentially a part of the struggle."
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Wakenbacons
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:14 am |
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Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:25 am
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SidewalkLiberty wrote: jwalidea wrote: Wakenbacons wrote: I might agree to a sort of Milestone Destiny... where milestone events are predetermined and perhaps I am able to flounder my way to each point with free will decisions. I believe this too, personally, but don't think it's absolute. I think we have the ability, through personal choice and/or random intervention, to stray from our predetermined path. Do you by any chance also believe in reincarnation then? Just curious. I could say I believe in some sort of reincarnation but I would have to expound on that greatly in order to clarify. However that idea is based in karma, which to my understanding is opposite of the Determinism philosophy. I am interested in how you correlate the two? I don't believe in a traditional form of reincarnation... I personally believe there is a single human spirit that accumulates every human experience into a balanced understanding outside of each individual perspective. This is the only way I can reconcile the disparity of singular lifetime experiences. This also accounts for karma, as a singular spirit would experience the gains and loss of every interaction evenly. As far as the inevitable question of duality... I can only offer that both work in such concert that the boundaries are indiscernible.
_________________
"All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."
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SailingBull
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Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:17 pm |
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Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:01 pm
Posts: 12
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It is my opinion that the free will of the individual is the greatest gift man has been given. I also believe it is currently under direct attack. Not only is it under attack, but I think it is the true focus of the Order. Their kind has always been bent on the domination of both the mind and will of man.
It is not enough for the envious to obtain what others have, that will not satisfy their desire for destruction. What draws their ire isn't their own lack, but anger at you for your possessions and happiness. That is the focus of their twisted, perverse and wicked attacks.
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Nazly
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Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:42 am |
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Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:19 am
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Location: San Antonio, TX
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Determinism is at least the pragmatic approach to life...if something doesn't happen, it's really because it wasn't meant to. Nothing you could have done would have changed the course and consequences, so there's no point in being disappointed when things don't go the way you planned. Free will would be nice to have, but I think the illusion of it is so innate in us, that free will itself is necessary. My heart says free will, and my brain gives determinism the yay. An interesting read on the subject... http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the- ... -free-will
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m082844
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:57 am |
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Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:28 pm
Posts: 45
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Nazly wrote: Determinism is at least the pragmatic approach to life...if something doesn't happen, it's really because it wasn't meant to. Nothing you could have done would have changed the course and consequences, so there's no point in being disappointed when things don't go the way you planned. Free will would be nice to have, but I think the illusion of it is so innate in us, that free will itself is necessary. My heart says free will, and my brain gives determinism the yay. An interesting read on the subject... http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the- ... -free-willDo you mean we should choose not to be disappointed when things don't go our way?
_________________
"The real cost of the state is the prosperity we do not see, the jobs that don’t exist, the technologies to which we do not have access, the businesses that do not come into existence, and the bright future that is stolen from us." -- F. Bastiat
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